Wednesday, May 21, 2008

Official DBC Announcement 2: GUESS WHO THE SPEAKERS ARE??

DBC Founder, JOHN EGBERT, along with ELLA MAE LENTZ, DAVID O. REYNOLDS, and DE announce top-notch speakers for the DBC EDUCATION CONFERENCE in Milwaukee! You won't be disappointed!

Link to DBC Wisconsin's Jack Barr's excellent and CLEAR video of the hotel area, click here.

Link to DBC Education Conference registration, click here.

Don't forget to grab a room at Hyatt Regency, 333 W. Kilbourn Ave., Milwaukee, WI. FYI, rooms at the special DBC rate of $129 per night are nearly sold out. For additional information, click here.

There are alternatives to Hyatt below, thanks to DBC Wisconsin's wonderful Jason Altmann...
Hilton-Milwaukee City Ctr
509 W Wisconsin Ave, Milwaukee, WI

Best Western-Towne Hotel
710 N Old World 3rd St, Milwaukee, WI

Inn Towne Hotel
710 N Old World 3rd St, Milwaukee, WI

Courtyard-Milwaukee Downtown
300 W Michigan St, Milwaukee, WI
414-291-4122 (0.12 miles away)

Doubletree Hotel Milwaukee City Center
611 W Wisconsin Ave, Milwaukee, WI

Hampton Inn-Downtown
176 W Wisconsin Ave, Milwaukee, WI

Pilsner Palace
333 W Kilbourn Ave, Milwaukee, WI

Ramada-Downtown City Ctr
633 W Michigan St, Milwaukee, WI

Residence Inn-Downtown
648 N Plankinton Ave, Milwaukee, WI

Inter Continental Milwaukee
139 E Kilbourn Ave, Milwaukee, WI

Staybridge Suites-Milwaukee
1201 N Edison St, Milwaukee, WI

Pfister Hotel
424 E Wisconsin Ave, Milwaukee, WI

Comfort Inn-Milwaukee
916 E State St, Milwaukee, WI

Wednesday, April 23, 2008

OFFICIAL DBC announcement- Milwaukee Conference & Rally!

Starring the world-famous ELLA MAE LENTZ and other DBC core members, this vlog shares all YOU need to know about the DBC conference & rally at Milwaukee June 27-30, 2008!

Monday, March 24, 2008

DBC California Update #2 at the Rally in AG Bell State Conference

Here is the last update report from David Eberwein. Thanks to Nick Horn for sharing his link that includes beautiful and inspiring photos of DBC-California peaceful rally that you can view it below.

DBC Report #7: (note: this is not a transcript of the video above)

Wow we just wrapped up. Total in attendance more likely 100-150! ( AG Bell only had 40 attendees!). The sheriff requested to talk with us so we gathered with him engaging in a dialogue. He very gratefully thanked us for being "the best group he's ever worked with"!! He complimented us on how we kept our area clean, peaceful, etc.! :)

Yoga was fun- tried to get kids involved but the kids were more for running around so adults joined in for some stretching on the grass. It was fun!

Then AG Bell ended at 4 PM without any wrap-up. Cat, Beth (DBC reps to AGB) came out and reported to us that after the keynote, it was very technical-focused, and the panel with 5 recent college graduates (all Deaf, oral etc.)... They shared their experiences at college, and a common theme was frustration, strife, etc. They've gained 150 new friends in us, DBC CA! And right now a few went back to us and are mingling with us. We've invited 'em to our suite party tonight. :)

We closed with a few more announcements after the sheriff spoke with us. More chants, etc. and one middle school student proudly declared that she and here young friends are our next generation and that they'd continue our work! :)

It was a great day with a large number of DBC participants, peacefulness, including having a great diversity in our rally.

We did good and it is only the beginning!

Saturday, March 22, 2008

DBC California Update #1 at the Rally in AG Bell State Conference

The DBC California chapter is hosting a rally today at Milpitas, California outside the Crowne Plaza Hotel from 7:30 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. Here is a list of interesting report updates submitted by David Eberwein explaining the positive dynamics of the rally. Future updates will be posted later on and video clips will be shown.

To obtain more information about the background of the DBC California, please check out their blog.

DBC CA Report #1
At the hotel, it appears that there is way more police appearance than Arlington, VA- there you can see this humongous police RV.

DBC CA report #2
Wow- one AGB convention attendee just flipped us off, and the police went into the convention and yelled the woman out, saying it was unacceptable.

Luckily Kristen Weiner already met w/ the hotel mgr and all the police this morning and they were very appreciative of our cooperation. We are standing on the grass in front of the hotel very good location.
Media is coming later today. :)

DBC CA Report #3
The AGB Keynote speaker, Josh Swiller, just finished and came out and joined us! Guess what? There are more of us than the AGB convention attendees!! (They have abt only 40!). Josh then spoke w/ us!!! He was genial, humorous, etc.!! We all have him hand waves, etc. Now ppl are speaking- and Dr. Klopping is explaining Sweden etc. Cat Cassidy, Beth Ticehurst, and Adam Lovelace- DBC CA's representatives in the AGB convention, are sharing their experiences this morning. They say Josh's keynote was great and mostly about his African experiences, however, the Q+A was solidly about his CI, etc. So far so good. There are about 80-90 of us here for DBC at this moment! And- AGB's conv is on the 2nd floor overseeing us...we are on the grass and AGB kept opening and shutting the drapes on us. We are very visible to 'em and they kept checking us out but slamming the drapes often.

DBC CA Report #4
It is lunch now and just before lunch, one of the AGB panelists, a Deaf audiologist in her late 20s/early 30s came out w/ another CI Deaf and chatted w/ us. She even presented to us- and AGB opened the drapes to spy on her. Anyway, she was pleasant and signed a bit and told us she tells families to use ASL in her job etc... We invited her to our suite party tonight and she enthusiastically said YES, YES! Then Tom Holcomb proposed that we mingle w/ AGB in the hotel restaurant and now we are mingling. Many of AGB CA ppl do sign. And before lunch, one of DBC CA's reps, Adam Lovelace, spoke w/ us and thanked DBC for asking him to rep us. He is oral, and just learned ASL 2 mos ago thru Kristen Weiner. Adam told us that he is a poster child for AGB- college degree, no ASL, owns a restaurant, etc- but when he met Kristen, and learned ASL felt his life is more complete now. Wow!! More at 1 PM- ppl are really mingling in the restaurant now. Connectedness, connectedness!

DBC CA report #5

After lunch, all 90-100 of us took a group picture. Weather's perfectly sunny. Beth Ticehurst, one of DBC reps in AGB reported that the AGB conv is now talking abt auditory tech stuff, very routine. Then AGB Keynoter Josh Swiller re-joined us and brought along another oral Deaf (w/ CIs), Michael Chorust (sp?), author of "Rebuilt" something to talk w/ us. Now others are talking to the group and soon yoga activities will begin. Its 2:15 now and the AGB conv is still in swing, but more and more of AGB attendees are coming out to join us ha. More drapes are opened now- either they're peering at us or have given up . Really mind-blowing to have around 100 of us as compared to 40 of 'em- and its a STATE convention!

Report #5- ADDENDUM!!

Michael Chorst just declared to us this, "I have learned more since my book...some of the things I wrote in my book,... My opinions have changed." He said he applied for a fellowship to Gallaudet University for ASL training! In closing, he said, "15 years from now, its unknown- but we need to work together." We are making in-roads!!!

DBC CA report #6

Its now 3:20 PST and more people are here. Children's activities- so cute! Someone donated her/his car for the kids to PAINT on- yessss, paint the car!! There are a lot of cute slogans on the car, and the kids are happily painting away.

Sandra Ammons, Don Grushkin, Ella Mae Lentz, Judy Gough, Roberta Daniels, Eugene LaCosse, Nan Zhou (represting Bay Area Deaf Asians), Ralph Singleton (representing CAD Bay Area), Hank Klopping, etc. spoke eloquently.

Also, the DBC CA committee was introduced to everybody- Kristen Weiner, Tara Holcomb, Brian Morrison, Liann Osborbe, Justin & Jonathan Reynolds, Jenny Cantrell, & Sean Hauschildt. All cheered 'em on.

Then we returned to the sidewalk and held out many signs- beautifffull and all photographed. We also were videotaped during our chant, etc. Will post photos & vlogs sometime soon.

T-shirts are selling like HOT wow..

AGB convention is winding down in about an hour and we'll be seeing them as we plan to invite as many of 'em to dinner w/ us.

More to come.

Sunday, March 9, 2008

DBC video presentation at DPN20


On behalf of DBC, we would like to thank you for including our newly founded coalition to be a part of the DPN20 celebration. It is an honor for us to share our thoughts on where we have been, what we are doing and where are we going.

For 124 years, Gallaudet students remained silent until March of 1988 when the outrageous selection of a hearing president over qualified Deaf candidates led to the DPN protest. The leadership style of the DPN protest that was shown and the unity of purpose that it engendered made it successful and proved that we can all can fight together to break down harmful political barriers. The 1988 protest made change for the better and caused more doors to be opened for Deaf people who sought and received promotions to higher positions in their employment. It conveyed the message that Deaf people are capable of handling such higher positions and that they should no longer be treated as second class citizens.

As we fast-forward in our view of the timeline to the present 20th-anniversary DPN celebrations, we should reflect on what has been accomplished and all the positive changes that have been made so far. We already know that more and more superintendents, members of boards of directors, administrators, etc., of schools for the Deaf are now themselves Deaf since the aftermath of DPN. Increased levels of self-determination and empowerment are now recognized in the Deaf community. Even steady increases in the number of advanced degrees awarded to Deaf people are taking place. Prior to DPN, it was easy to name all deaf people holding doctorates, but not anymore. Does this mean that everything is all fine and dandy now? Should we just sit back now after all these gains and allow our political efforts to coast? We know very well that nothing is guaranteed and that these numbers, which continue to be on the rise, could later plummet. The question we need to ask is: How can we prevent such a reversal from happening?

For 128 years, the AG Bell organization has plowed their way onto the political scene by spreading the practice of oralism. They have not really been challenged since the days of the debates with Edward Miner Gallaudet. In early 1900's, George Veditz made efforts to preserve sign language by recording signers' speeches and performances on film, due to the threat of manual practices being banned in programs and schools all over the country. Some of the schools for the Deaf adopted an oral-only philosophy and shunned the manual practices completely. Some of the schools kept both methods. Nevertheless, the students were oppressed and they suffered the consequences, thereby being prevented from developing strong literacy skills and achieving higher levels of education and career success in the mid 20th century.

In the 70's, Total Communication (TC) came in the picture because of the findings of the Babbidge Report in 1965 which declared oralism to be a failure. However, the problem with TC was that it included a broad range of varied communication modes, such as Signed English, Signing Exact English, Simultaneous Communication, and what used to be called "Pidgin Signed English." ASL was not yet accepted as a primary at that time, although it was a part of the TC package. For as long as anyone can remember, the average deaf high school graduate's reading level remained stubbornly low. Many deaf children did succeed, but overall, the figure still remained low.

Then the evidence of research began to come in: Deaf children of Deaf parents tended to do much better. More recently, study after study has been released showing that a natural signed language should be the default language of deaf children, since they are VISUAL learners. Independent bilingual-bicultural charter schools began to spring up in the 1980's, but only slowly. Too often, a main obstacle has been ignorance and fear which has sometimes had the effect of pushing parents away from bilingual approach. Parents then make the misguided choice of thinking that spoken English should be their Deaf children's primary language. Too much propaganda has been marketed by the AG Bell Association for the Deaf (AGBAD), an organization which has persuaded parents to buy into their philosophy without really having the chance or taking the time to become educated about the benefits of the bilingual approach.

It is now 2008 and progress in bilingual education has, even at this late date, not yet been placed steadfast motion, even though research is being done and programs have been established at Gallaudet and in some prominent universities. We have seen the beauty of the results of these practices, but this good news has not been well publicized. Many parents still haven't been informed. In addition, only very few bilingual-bicultural courses are offered in teacher preparatory programs, as many educators who have been surveyed respond that they feel like they need more information, but that they are aware of the programs. However, along a contrary direction, clinical programs are on the rise, and a lot of misleading intervention materials are being made available to parents. We should see this as a red flag. Parents are being kept in the dark about the importance of allowing their Deaf babies to be exposed to ASL and acquiring it as a first language. Early acquisition of ASL is the only effective way for Deaf children to develop English skills, with English being learned as a second language.

We now have resources and programs but who will do the necessary marketing? This is why DBC was set up in July 2007, to enable us all to speak up about the findings of the benefits of bilingualism and to encourage parents and members of the public to learn more about the truth.

As Martin Luther King Jr. emphasized, we should take a stand for that which is right, just and true.

Thank you!

Please spread the word for others to come and join our first annual DBC education conference in Milwaukee, Wisconsin on June 27-30th. There will be workshops and presentations by keynote speakers, training sessions, rallies, entertainment, and various children's activities. More details will be announced in the website:

Note: DBC thanks DPN leaders and conference organizers for including us in the DPN20 event.

Tuesday, February 5, 2008

DBC Letter to Pepsico

You may click on the letter icon above to get a larger view
or read the text version below of the DBC's letter to Pepsico:

February 5, 2008

Ms. Julie Hamp
Senior Vice President
PepsiCo Communications
700 Anderson Hill Road
Purchase, NY 10577

Dear Ms. Hamp,

On behalf of the Deaf Bilingual Coalition (DBC), we would like to thank Pepsi for airing the “Bob’s House” commercial and for generously replying to the countless number of correspondence items the global Deaf Community members and allies sent in support of the commercial.

Pepsi’s commercial did not just raise awareness about Deaf people’s natural way of life; it can actually enhance lives. Because of the unprecedented and highly-viewed commercial, the chances that future parents of Deaf babies will pick up American Sign Language (ASL) increased exponentially. Additionally, the many benefits ASL gives to hearing babies has been well-documented, so Pepsi did a great service for all babies, Deaf and hearing. Thank you.

Established as a grass-roots organization and movement in 2007, the DBC is here to ensure that all Deaf babies and children succeed and thrive through early and strong acquisition of ASL and English. The DBC is also challenging the Alexander Graham Bell Association’s (AG Bell’s) long-standing campaign and activism against ASL, diversity, quality education, and economic power among the Deaf community. Since AG Bell’s inception, they have steadfastly promoted the mentality that all Deaf people should shun ASL and natural and successful ways of living in society.

Through AG Bell’s Children’s Legal Advocacy program, cases have been brought against school districts that provide ASL-based instruction to Deaf students. With AG Bell and Auditory-Verbal International’s Auditory-Verbal Therapy program, families are explicitly encouraged not to use ASL with their Deaf children. Finally, AG Bell’s affiliation with corporations such as Cochlear Americas, has resulted in the accumulation of vast wealth that does not return one cent to the Deaf community. AG Bell criticizing Pepsi about money not being well-spent reflects a blatant double standard.

With the overwhelming majority of AG Bell and Cochlear America’s Board members and top executives being non-minority and non-Deaf, the DBC finds AG Bell’s characterization of Pepsi supposedly having a “limited” view of Deaf diversity extremely puzzling. AG Bell appears to be confusing the issue of true diversity with the issue of the diversification of their affiliates’ stock portfolios. Yet that did not stop AG Bell from purporting to speak for the Deaf community. The National Association of the Deaf (NAD), with a diverse Board, is the Deaf community’s true representative.

It appears that any positive and widespread celebration of ASL and Deaf people’s way of living represents a potential loss of profits, power, and political clout for the auditory-industrial complex. The DBC is pleased that Pepsi, unlike AG Bell, understands the miracle of sound reasoning.

The DBC warmly invites Pepsi to join our June 27-30, 2008 conference in Milwaukee. Your involvement will go a long way in ensuring that Deaf babies learn ASL and English and experience guaranteed success in their lives--not to mention the fact that it will add more Pepsi customers to the already large number of Deaf Pepsi drinkers. We will be happy to follow up with further details pertaining to our upcoming conference.

Again, thank you for doing a great service for all babies, Deaf and hearing alike, and also for the global Deaf community.

The core team of the Deaf Bilingual Coalition:

Barbara DiGiovanni
David Eberwein
John Egbert
Tami Hossler
Ella Mae Lentz
David Reynolds

Link to ASL version by Ella Mae Lentz, click here.

To download the letter, click here.

Link to AG Bell's letter to Pepsico, click here.

Thursday, January 31, 2008

In a Reponse to Paula's Questions

Since DBC made a very long response to Paula, we feel that it may be worth posting since it gives out more supporting research links to these questions that some parents may have in mind. We want you to keep an open mind to see the benefits of raising your Deaf child(ren) in a bilingual environment. Thank you for reading!

Paula said:

You said, " is important not to overlook that the bilingual children tend to retain better cognitive skills and have advanced academic skills." Where is the proof of this statement? Can you direct me to a published, unbiased research study?

You also said, "Deaf babies have been deprived of accessible natural language exposure..." which doesn't make sense. When have babies been deprived? Parents who teach their babies to listen and speak are not depriving them of anything. They are giving them access and understanding of the things they hear and the ability to communicate with anyone they choose. ASL can be taught at any time, spoken language cannot as the window of opportunity is before the child is 5 years old.

I'm not saying that parents should choose one or the other, that is for THEM to decide. Not you, not me, not anyone else.


Thank you for your interest and inquiring about the DBC's mission. We are more than happy to share you the research studies.

There are a lot more research studies on bilingual issues found in books (i.e. Mahshie) and journals (i.e. Journal of Deaf Studies and Education). Feel free to go to the library and surf the net to do some readings to learn more about bilingual studies.

As for now, we can start with the provided resource links found in the right column. One of the links that you can click on the link that allows you to download the article on "
The Impact of Sign Language on the Cognitive Development of Deaf Children" written by Cyril Courtin.

We would like to share you another link that stated:

"In those instances where the child's hearing loss is mild enough that both languages can be learned through natural processes of interaction (rather than training), the effects of this early bilingualism are not considered a threat to the child's development of spoken or signed language but rather a positive factor in the child's overall development (Preisler, 1983, 1990). Cummins and Swain (1986) cite numerous studies conducted since the early 1960s reporting that bilingual children function at a significantly higher level than monolingual children on various measures of cognitive abilities. In a similar vein, Daniels (1993) found that hearing children whose first language was Sign Language had English skills superior to their monolingual peers. In other words, exposing a hard of hearing child to Sign Language early is not considered to be risky or detrimental (Ahlström, in press; Preisler, 1983, 1990). Rather, for those hard of hearing children who do have enough access to the spoken signal to acquire speech naturally, the benefits of early bilingualism in the spoken language of the home and the signed language of the Deaf community are considered to be an asset for the child."

As you can see, there are more than several researchers finding the benefits of early bilingualism since it is not conducted by the same researcher.

DBC knows that Deaf babies are not receiving information 100% if they are limited to spoken English. Most of the hearing babies are not able to use correct speech from birth to 24 months and it has been recommended for them to sign where they are able to better express their thoughts. It doesn't make sense to expect Deaf babies to speak and listen without signs especially that they don't have complete hearing. The "window of opportunity" to enable speech and auditory skills is not a natural way for Deaf babies to learn since they are learning "skills" whereas "the window of opportunity" is to acquire an accessible, natural language, ASL, that is, which is much more crucial for language development. Learning ASL later has bad effects as well, although not apparently as bad as speech. The current trend to educate deaf children bilingually—with the use of American Sign Language—has opened new possibilities for developing spoken English.

Please see the link:

"According to Barbara Haskins, M.D., an associate professor of clinical psychiatry at the University of Virginia, language deprivation definitely affects cognitive function. Dr. Haskins is a specialist in treating deaf patients on the deaf ward of Western State Hospital in Staunton, Virgina. There is a window of opportunity to acquire language. If that window is missed, individuals tend to display cognitive defects later in life. Many of her patients were raised by hearing parents in rural areas who only communicated orally or in simple gestures. In an article in Psychiatric News she explained, "My patients only saw talking heads and moving lips, which did not stimulate the left side of the brain that sets up rules for language and thought." (3)

and the link about how ASL helps develop spoken English:

"In fact, the experience of many speech-language therapists in such environments has been that when deaf children develop a solid language base in American Sign Language, teaching spoken communication is easier."

When you said, "I'm not saying that parents should choose one or the other, that is for THEM to decide. Not you, not me, not anyone else." We already mentioned that in our letter that it is the choice of the parents to decide if her son is to grow up without using natural sign language. However, we cannot leave the parents in the dark if they are not getting the full picture. As a part of the Deaf Community, it is our responsibility to educate what is the best for the Deaf child. We don't believe in directing the parents to make ONE choice or another since we are offering the whole package by including both languages that are much more beneficial to Deaf babies/children.



A Letter from a parent to DBC and a response

Here is a letter from a parent with a son who has bilateral cochlear implants. Since there are some misunderstandings that need to be clarified, DBC responded a letter to her. We decided to share it with you hoping it will help gain better understanding about the intentions of DBC's goal. Note, this parent included AG Bell information in the end of her letter.


Came across your website and I have to comment. Your website makes it sound like parents are being forced to NOT sign to their deaf children. I believe it is not a competition, but a choice for parents to make. We signed to our son, then he received 2 cochlear implants, and now signing is minimal as he is oral. Our goal was not to make people think he not deaf, because with his 2 large CI's on his head it's hard to NOT notice! We are not ashamed that he is deaf! We just chose to not sign as his primary mode of communication. Statements like this on your website: "AG, Volta Bureau and other organizations against ASL and all forms of hand gestures lost the war since Time began." are sad as it is not a fight. I believe it is a choice. Parents should be given all of their choices - ASL, TC, and oral/AV when their child is diagnosed with a hearing loss. We are not trying to make our children "seem" normal - they ARE normal. They're unique - just like everyone else in the world! We are all wonderfully made by a Creator who loves us! I pray that you discover that for yourself. God loves you!
Blessings to you!

Thank you for your time,

Laura xxxxxxx

Hearing loss affects 12,000 newborns in the US each year.
That's 33 babies a day - making hearing loss the most common birth defect.
~But, did you know that most children born with a hearing loss can learn to listen and talk?
Find out how at or

Hearing loss affects 12,000 newborns in the US each year.
That's 33 babies a day - making hearing loss the most common birth defect.
~But, did you know that most children born with a hearing loss can learn to listen and talk?
Find out how at or

Dear Laura,

Thank you for your feedback. The purpose of the DBC is to promote awareness about the immense benefits for Deaf babies to acquire fluency in sign language and apparently you have done that with your son.

As research stated that the most critical language-learning period occurs between birth and three years old, no time should be wasted to expose Deaf babies (just like hearing babies) to a natural language that is visual, tactile Signed Language.

The DBC recognizes that Deaf babies have been deprived of accessible natural language exposure that they were expected to understand spoken English and to speak at that age especially that they haven't develop auditory skills and speech skills. It is a beautiful nature being Deaf, being a visual being, it makes perfect sense to use ASL, a language that is 100 percent accessible. Using signs with hearing babies have skyrocketed in popularity since research proves multiple benefits so why should Deaf babies be denied of that opportunity?

As for your son using cochlear implants and choosing not to sign as he grows up will probably be your choice. But remember as a parent, it is important not to overlook that the bilingual children tend to retain better cognitive skills and have advanced academic skills. We would strongly encourage any children to acquire two languages when growing up since there are more benefits and advantages for them.

We are not sure how much you understand the history of AG Bell and the organization. This man, AG Bell, practiced eugenics that he attempted to stop the Deaf marrying the Deaf and strictly banned sign language that resulted many oppressed Deaf orals who were deprived of their language that they got abused for attempting to sign. It is amazing that this organization is still allowed to exist and being supported while the symbol represents oppression and abuse. DBC is fighting against the myths and misconceptions created by AVT that actually stated it BANS ASL. DBC doesn't ban spoken English but promotes the bilingual approach with ASL and English.

Also, we are not sure where this statement was found "AG, Volta Bureau and other organizations against ASL and all forms of hand gestures lost the war since Time began." on our website. We know this statement isn't found anywhere in DBC's website content but if its in a comment, it's not our official position. Please check out the DBC's mission statement that states…

"The Deaf Bilingual Coalition promotes the basic human right of all Deaf infants and young children to have access to language and cognitive development through American Sign Language."

It is just simple as that. By the way, TC includes a variety of communication modes (SEE, PSE, SimCom, etc) and ASL. We believe the official description of TC is that it is just a educational philosophy and not a method. Research shows that using TC has failed among Deaf children since they still graduate with a 4th grade level. The reason is obvious since SEE, PSE, SimCom, etc. are not considered a true language. We are doing more harm if we use one of these artificial languages making Deaf children more confused about English and ASL. We strongly believe to keep two languages, ASL and English, separate. We support both ASL and spoken English as long as ASL is used as a primary language as a foundation making it easier to bridge to English.

We pray that you and your son will embrace and thrive in the rich infinite possibilities of mastery in TWO languages and the cultures of both worlds.

Thank you,